Inside Outside Innovation is the podcast that brings you the best and the brightest in the world of startups and innovation. I’m your host, Brian Ardinger founder of Insideoutside.io, a provider of research events and consulting services that help innovators and entrepreneurs build better products, launch new ideas and compete in a world of change and disruption. Each week, we’ll give you a front row seat for the latest thinking, tools, tactics, and trends in collaborative innovation. Let’s get started.
Interview Transcript
Brian Ardinger: Welcome to another episode of Inside Outside Innovation. I’m your host, Brian Ardinger. And as always, we have another amazing guest today. We are recording one of our IO Live sessions with legendary Fernando Garibay.
Fernando is a record producer, songwriter, DJ, entrepreneur. He was the official music director for Lady Gaga’s Born This Way ball and producer for her Born This Way Album. He’s worked with some amazing artists from U2 to Brittany Spears, and now he’s working with some amazing corporate giants as the founder of the Garibay Center. Fernando, welcome to the show.
Fernando Garibay: Thank you, Brian. Thank you for having me on your show. I’m a huge fan. You’re one of the best interviewers I’ve come across, so I’m excited to be here.
Brian Ardinger: Thanks. Thanks very much. And you and I met about a year ago when I had a chance to come out to your studio and see your process of how you create a hit. And so I wanted to have you on the show for a couple different reasons. One, to start things off, the world has changed dramatically in the last two months. And we’re entering what I’m calling the Great Reset. The old models are not working. Old ways of thinking. Status quo are being disrupted.
And I wanted to have you on the show to talk about the creative process. And how the business world needs to awaken its creative side and how you’re doing that at the Garibay Center. How did you move from producing some of the biggest hits in the world and work with some of the best artists on the planet, to pivoting and working in this corporate innovation environment?
Fernando Garibay: So, it’s really interesting. It’s what the Garibay Center is all about, and why I founded this arena, what I call a New Paradigm. And just to clarify a couple points, one point is I still leverage and create content for the purpose of not only expanding and supporting and showing proof of concept that our model does work, but also to stay active in a creative community and stay creative myself.
Second point, what gives me relevancy in this climate and culture of innovation and why I started working with the corporate sector is because I realized none of what we do, as individuals, as human beings is sole dependent. It’s not one person, it is community growth. And as I realized, working 20 years in the music industry at the highest tier, I realized that if we become an Island and we only create content with the purpose of expanding brands, so to speak, creating music and books and creating music and not really focusing on diversifying our creative portfolio, we’re limited.
And what I realized is besides access, right, on all sides, musicians are always creating at the highest level every day. They’re in the trenches being creative. Where is another value set that we can use that creativity and apply it to outside businesses, besides entertainment industry. You see, man, it’s a projection of myself because I am completely polymathic in my approach. It’s all subjects, all sectors of business. It’s all entertainment, all combined because creativity is creativity. Creativity is you find a new path to work every day because you are creative and looking for different novel ways of getting to work. Theoretically. Right. So that’s just a very simple anecdotal version of quick creativity is.
Having hit records, having the success, it got really empty and vapid for a while because essentially, I was defining my success by the hit records I have, and that’s a very common problem. So, what I decided to do is shift the creativity and what I do every day. And all this happened in my career is I’ve evolved to look at this and adopt this orthogonal perspective. It’s all things are related in a theory of emergence and chaos. Everything is related, right? So how can we utilize our skill sets of being creative and apply it to the corporate sector? How can we apply our creative attributes as musicians, as actors, as artists, as entertainers to use those lenses and solve problems?
Now, that sounds like a really high, abstract and tangible goal. But the reality is it’s possible when you have Elon Musk tapping into the creativity of the Philharmonic New York conductor for his design idea, so to speak. Then you start to see that there are people who are hungry for different lenses. And so, my goal was to educate the entertainment and arts and music industry. Find mentees who are interested in being entrepreneurial minded. So they can not only create music, but learn the Harvard Business MBA course, learn a Wharton MBA course, learn the Oxford Neuroscience Course, which I distill in a way that musicians and artists can understand and apply these frameworks to expanding who they are as individuals, but also expanding their output.
Think of the Garibay Center as it brings relevancy to these artists as thought leaders. And it comes from this crucible of thought. Well, if you look at the greatest thinkers of all time from Einstein to Galileo, you start to see a correlation with musicianship. So there were musicians, Einstein was a violin player, and you start to see this correlation…you can make this connection that individuals who are creative, have creative expressions such as an instrument, et cetera, have this ability to look at things differently.
All I’m doing is giving them the vocabulary to be able to do this effectively and to have this discourse now and sharing creative ideas. Now, not just making music or photography, et cetera, but also applying those skill sets to design, to helping corporate leaders, to think through their problems in a different way.
Aligning academic professors and the academic community to also apply this creativity in a different orthogonal way, so that we bring value to each other. So, think of the Garibay Center as a best in class, academic, corporate, and entertainment industry, working together to solve real problems.
Brian Ardinger: Let’s get tactical and talk a little bit about how that actually works. One of the things I liked about you and the session I went through, was how you brought the business side into the creative process. So, can you talk about how do you go about creating a hit. You know you’re working with an artist. What do you do? How do you use metrics and analytics on that to craft that and talk us through that process?
Fernando Garibay: Okay. In order to do that I have to kind of define a few terms, right? So, what is a hit? And so, we define a hit as when you successfully connect your content to a mass, participating groups. Identifying a target audience and then connecting with them on a genuine, authentic level. You’ve done that. You have a hit.
If you want to go into music, entertainment industry, you look at such metric as billboard or charts, et cetera. They show you… Spotify streaming numbers…they show you who you’ve connected with successfully with the help of a machine, such as a label and publishing the marketing departments, et cetera, a machine to expand your content. To distribute your content. Or independent artists, relying on the virality effect of something like TikTok to become a creative launchpad for your content and successfully connect with your target audience.
Without getting too technical, that’s kind of a summation of what a hit is. Now we realize that the same model applies to brands. And we realize that same model applies to corporate leadership. When we look at the connection between what an artist does, an artist essentially, a creative brand about postulating a narrative. That model like creating a hit for that brand is the same as creating a hit for a campaign for Gillette, for P&G. It’s all the same framework. So, what we did very early on in the Garibay Center, what I did was I was case setting every single artist I’ve worked with and looking at their emotional tone of their brand.
And remember brand is just a word, it’s a simple over contextualize word that we can compartmentalize how the public sees who they are. So, I just brand in that context and not so much as a soulless, business, old ideological perspective. You know, as I case studied these major artists that I worked with, it was always about launching the next single. What’s the next thing you’re going to be about and what’s the purpose? Most of the artists that I’ve worked with were always socially impact driven from U2 to Lady Gaga, to you name it. And so, it was always about telling the right narrative to help their audience identify with who they are. Or maybe helping the audience identify who they are as individuals. So, it’s multilevel.
So, it was a process in which we ideate ideas, right? Create content, go back and test it and see if it works within our A&R team. I started seeing the correlation between the creative process of creating hit records with ideals, design thinking, Stanford design thinking. I started seeing agile and lean manufacturing in this. And as I look at these corporate structures, frameworks, I started implementing in organizing the creative process in a way that can be scaled and can be taught so that we’re no longer shooting in the dark.
Okay. We’re going to go in and try to create a hit record and where do we start, right? No, no, no. There’s a framework for this. And you can go in, be more tactical about it. And still be even more creative because that creative energy is focused in a structured way. It’s way more fun than having to guests work your way through it. So that’s what the Garibay Center did. Now we use those same frameworks and teach it to corporate executives and academics equally. So, we may co-study and figure out new novel ways of solving problems using this creative process.
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Brian Ardinger: Are you seeing artists adapting some of these lean startup techniques as far as early experimentation, working directly with the marketplace to understand what works, what doesn’t work? What are some of the things that you’re seeing?
Fernando Garibay: What I’m seeing is that they’ve always done this. Way before agile and IBM and Microsoft had started implementing some of these frameworks. And all I did was connect, you know, these correlatively, you know, similarities so that I may give some context to what they do. And by distilling this, some might say, why would you overcomplicate things?
Well actually, no, I’m defining what they’re doing and clarifying what they’re doing so that others may understand and take advantage of the ability of the creative community to provide novel solutions and new ways to approach this. You see creativity arguably comes from divergent thinking. New ideas come from divergent thinking. And for my case studies, most of the artists that I work with come from, an extraordinary amount of trauma, which led to a different way of seeing the world.
If I may teach and help use this talent that comes from extraordinary circumstances to see the world differently. And there’s still that. So, the world can utilizing skills that they’ve learned and practice every day to express themselves, to express new ideas, to test on the market space in real time. Right. Launches single on discover, Hey, that’s not working. That’s not connecting. Let’s go to the next thing. Go. Let’s create new content immediately because that’s the world we live in now. It’s quick testing, right? Quick failing, quick feedback. And that’s agile, right? It’s back and forth. And that’s also designed customer centricity, et cetera. That’s, what’s really valuable now.
And I know we touched upon this previous when you and I spoke, you know, we’re at that time now where it’s like the Darwinian effect of how we evolve as a society, to be more technical. We are now living online more than ever before. And this process is evolution has happened and where we have to migrate to the cloud. We have to now migrate in having these Zoom conversations and lectures. And conferences, et cetera. This is new.
All society has migrated by force. So, we pushed and nudged society until a whole new paradigm in which it’s putting an end to the knowledge worker, Peter Drucker’s knowledge worker and now we’re entering a fully engaged creative hemisphere, right. We are now in a world where you have to be created to excel. And who better than to tap the entertainment, art musicians, photographers, et cetera. You should share how they’ve been innovating every day of their lives. 24/7, for years. That’s what I’m excited about.
Brian Ardinger: Let’s get a little tactical. What are some of the resources or life hacks or things that you’ve used, or your artists have used, or even the companies that you’ve worked with to accelerate their learning in this particular space?
Fernando Garibay: One is empathic circles and empathic spaces, empathic rooms. So, when I’m working with an artist, I have five minutes, right. The caliber of artists that I work with don’t have a lot of time, and their attention span is short because they too have to have so much focus on other things. Running a machine like that with the major artists is very complex and requires a lot of thought and if the artist is driving that then they have to allocate time. So, what I do, how do I capture attention? How do I get people…the most important than you can do in a room is get people emotionally engaged?
How do you engage the limbic system? This is very valuable in leadership and corporate leadership. Which requires extreme empathy, right? And yet, the traditional corporate leadership structure lacks empathy and that’s kind of a theoretically, right? Like it’s known to not really know about each other’s personal lives, how they feel about things. It’s more about like, directives, right. Traditionally. Now that’s changed completely. Now people realize in order to be creative and have ideas, you have to engage the limbic system. So that’s always been the case in the music industry, when I worked with artists, is I have five minutes back to this point, I gave myself five minutes because I knew by that time on average and start to lose their attention.
So, what I do is immediately when I went with an artist, I asked questions. And what’s the first question I typically ask something like you know, an artist just got off tour. Right? So, the last thing they want to be is at my studio. Or they just had a big show or had numerous interviews, last thing they’d want to do is hear about more music, depending on their headspace.
So, what I ask is what’s your favorite song of all time? How has this song changed who you are? Or what does this song mean to you? And I have not had one circumstance where they have not answered honestly. Or I’ll ask something like, you know, what was the performance that made you want to do this for the rest of your life? Something that’s delusional as chasing this dream of being a 0.0001% to be a successful artist.
And the answer in a form of light. It was when Whitney Houston, when she sang this one song, it was Madonna when she performed at the MTV music awards. Right. It was that, that change, that was the pivotal shift to their perspective, of how they would see the world from now on. When they start talking about this, there’s a prefrontal limbic system shift, the body expression change. Their all of a sudden back to when they were nine years old, seven years old, eight years old, and they saw the US, or they saw Green Day perform and they wanted to do that for the rest of their life. They had their calling. So, I just tap into those moments. And it’s the same for executives is the same for management. It’s identifying purpose.
Or re-identifying purpose or showing that purpose evolves, it’s not static. In those moments to create an empathic environment within the space you’re working in. That’s extraordinarily powerful, invaluable, because what that does, it gets the leaders in the room or every individual room to get engaged on a deeper level. Yeah, I’m sure most of us now, watched the Phil Jackson, ESPN, The Last Dance. That’s a great example of what we’ve been doing from day one, right? When we do have writing sessions, we’re in a room sharing our deepest moments. And that’s every day with strangers. Cause we work with different artists every day, with different writers.
So what I framework is a tactical model that can be taught so that people can engage themselves at a genuine, a hundred percent honest level, like who they are, why they do what they do, and how can we create meaning for us and how can create meaning for our brands, our community so we may make a social impact and create change in the world. That can happen in any room and that’s inspiring people to move towards action.
Brian Ardinger: We’re going to open up for Q and A in a bit here. You’ve been around again, some of the most creative individuals on the planet. Are there particular attributes that stand out or skillsets that these folks have that differentiate them and put them at that .00001%? What have you seen?
Fernando Garibay: That’s one of the core essence of why I started case studying, Oh you know, the artists I’ve worked with, and I want to be careful how I answer that because in respect to the artists and how extraordinary each one is in their own unique way. The universal attribute that, that I was able to recognize is divergent thinking. It is divergent thinking coupled with the ability to get rid of that wall. Let me explain.
Majority of the artists I’ve worked have had dramatic events happen to their lives. As most of us have. Now, what they were able to do is translate those traumatic events to create meaning and purpose in their life. I was bullied so I’m going to take that and help others that were bullied too. Or I was abused by my parents so I’m going to take that and make that my drive so that I can share that I can overcome that no one can stop me.
These commonalities of triumph using divergent thinking, coupled with their unique selves, that combination was like lethal. That cut through all the noise. That aligned with their dedication to their craft. So, let’s add that, to right, so it’s divergent thinking, authentic selves and extraordinary ability to not only craft, but to partner the skillsets so that they may apply it to these two principles.
Brian Ardinger: Are you seeing things differently now? Like as the world’s changing us, the entertainment world’s changing. How do you see what you’re learning and what you’re working on? How’s that going to change as this new world’s changing?
Fernando Garibay: That’s the now, right. So, I mentioned before, I believe this Darwinian Effect is incredibly advantageous. I mean, think about this. The world has just hit a pause button. What a great time to take advantage of that in a way where you can better yourselves. Right? Here’s what I do. And here’s what I recommend everyone do. Not only has it worked for me, but it’s worked for so many people that I have passed this on to, and that is educate yourself. Right?
I mean, imagine if in a perfect scenario, you can put a pause button on the world, so you can learn as much as you like about bettering yourself, bettering your world, bettering your family’s lives, bettering your community, the lives of people, right, by educating and understanding and giving yourself the tools to learn how people have failed in the passions that you have, so that you may not repeat those failures. How powerful is that? Audio books, podcasts like yourself, Brian, who are educating your world and giving people these hacks to better themselves and better the community and better leadership.
My favorite anecdote to this is Peter Drucker, the father of modern business management at the Harvard Business School, who no longer is with us, obviously, but he had to idea that would work for a corporation, thought process, works for a family. What works for a family to succeed, healthy, growth, you know loving, empathic environment, works for a corporation. Isn’t that powerful. Well, these things are like what you pick up as you learn and study and do audio books and listen to podcasts. And just follow your passions, let your curiosity beat a motivator.
Curiosity is painful, right? Like that’s, it’s a little ting of pain. That’s what drives a brain to perform. Right. And to learn. So use that as motivation to define what your purpose is and listen to these great authors, such as Steven Pickering, Nassim Taleb, Noam Chomsky, Alan Watts, you name it like there’s people out there who have gone through what you’ve gone through and have carved a path. So why not go there? That’s what excites me.
Brian Ardinger: And that’s a great transition because you’ve been in this industry for a while and you started very young. Somehow you found early mentors and early folks that were able to help guide you through that industry and give you a path and that. What kind of recommendations or thoughts do you have for folks starting out in whatever it is, whether it’s a music industry or new startup that can help them find mentors and find that network and find that learning mechanism that accelerates their growth?
Fernando Garibay: Yeah, that’s a great question because I think throughout the history of, entrepreneurship, the history of the arts as well, and the history of science, it’s always been driven by mentors. If you look back, Picasso had a team, right. He mentored like…and every major, individuals left footprint on this planet came from a process of mentee and mentor. And the key is, here’s the have, I highly recommend first of all, you find somebody that you can model yourself or you look up to, at the very least look up to. And the key to having a mentor is it is absolutely essential, this is why I’m talking about it, is to make sure that you have a give back.
I would highly recommend you never approach your idol, or who you want somebody to mentor you, with, can you help me? I highly recommend you approach your mentor, your future mentor with how can I help you make your day easier? Here are my skill sets. You know, these skill sets, maybe they can apply to you. You know anything I can do to help you make your life easier. I’m here at to do. I’m a huge fan of what you do. I am happy just to observe, you can spend a little time just to answer my questions here and there. I’m available for you. I don’t think any mentor is going to be able to turn that down unless they’re completely like just awkward.
Brian Ardinger: All right, let’s go to some Q and A. So, if you have any questions from the audience, but feel free to put it into the, the question box here. We’ve got a couple of things here. My dream is to work with Fernando. You’re so talented. It’s not really a question, but congrats there. Question on, have you experienced anyone deflect your disarming approach? Like how do you overcome that? You’ve got a very charismatic approach that really is disarming and it’s different than what you traditionally see in a business setting and that. How do you go about I’m making connections quickly?
Fernando Garibay: A lot of practice. I think it comes from my background. So, my father was an extraordinary eccentric man. He came from a factory, you know, blue collar labor. I mean, we grew up in some difficult times, but what he would do, even though our family was struggling, he would feed homeless people every day at our dinner table, breakfast table, I should say. And that taught me a lot because, you know, he would introduce them as family members. And you’re talking about all sorts of races, all sorts of gender preference. It was everything right. And so, I would ask questions, you know, as a kid, you know, it was like like an Uncle from the Middle East? I didn’t know we had an uncle like, this is bizarre, like random people, but my Dad was very giving.
So I learned how to connect with everybody by looking for universalities right. We all get hungry. What a basic principle to start with. I started to be able to see behind the illusion that people give their front. Because everyone has one. We are protective of our inner core. What I do is I just put it out there, like immediately. It’s about sharing your flaws. It’s about like, just being authentic.
Brian Ardinger: Like, did that come naturally or how do you break down the barriers of saying, okay. I want to be authentic, but like you said, there’s all these reasons why you don’t want to show your core and that. So how do you overcome that?
Fernando Garibay: I could just test this with you. We had an earlier panel today and one of the members says I struggled with depression. Okay. I’m in a room and that’s a great example of vulnerability, right? So, it’s like what I call Vulnerability Gestures. We all marry each other in circumstance, right? We’re a product of the people we surround ourselves with. Not only in life as a whole, but at the given moment, we’re all marrying each other. Right? Essentially. So, the key is to use that. I’ll get in a room with the C-Suite at Microsoft, C-Suite at whatever. Or I’ll be in a room with, you know, a major artist. And it’s universal. It’s like, it’s as simple as how do you get over when you’re not having a great day? You know, I’m honest with what’s going on in my life.
My brother just got over COVID, you know, yeah. I was terrified. It’s as simple as that and sharing that aspect. Immediately people engage. Oh yeah, me too. You know, and the biggest easiest starter in the creative communities, is mental wellness, right? What I call Mental Fitness. I can see you’re having a difficult time. Am I presumptuous to say you’re having a difficult time right now? And they will answer, right. So, I can cast out, genuine, vulnerable pitches, to people in the room. And so, what I say is in my studio and my creator space, I throw myself under the bus all the time. I want to be the one run over first, so I can get you to be in touch with yourself. And that’s what it is. That’s why, I don’t have people turn me down.
Brian Ardinger: Another question in here. What does your daily routine look like as a music producer? What are your biggest challenges in life?
Fernando Garibay: I split my time up between creating and making music. Why do it? It’s interesting because it keeps me sharp. It keeps me in the trenches with my creative class. I spoke with law professors who have guided me through these courses on my own. I’m an autodidact. I learn on my own. And they’ve guided me. And what I notice is I asked them, why do you teach when you can do.
This is a very general question, and the answer they gave me, is it keeps me sharp. Right. So, you have these Harvard professors. MIT professors, Oxford professors, that are telling me that they write books, but instead of promoting these books or instead of working in the corporate sector, et cetera. There’s nothing wrong with that, either one, but they chose to stay and teach because it keeps them in the trenches.
All right. So that’s what I do. And I try to split my time between working in bright produced records, while I teach, I teach other producers and songwriters. While I do this. And then I create a farm system in which they teach others. Then equally at the same time, I teach them how to be orthogonal. And what I mean by that is they learn the Harvard MBA essentials. They learn the Wharton School of Business essentials and Stanford Design Thinking essentials. They learn Oxford Neuroscience essentials. All these things are relevant to how they create. And then we start the conversation and invite people to solve problems together in music industry, along with, again, academic in the corporate sector.
So, I divide my temporary making music, teaching, lecturing and spreading the gospel of the Garibay Center and what we’re doing, alongside our Gener8tor and Proctor and Gamble, et cetera. And eventually do a DJ set here for fun, here and there, but it’s really all over the place. I stay active, so I may be better to serve people.
Brian Ardinger: All right. One of the questions, we’ve got time for maybe one more, you have a compelling way of describing the act of creating music as being driven by making an impact or coming out of adversity. Have you ever debated with anybody about music for its own sake? This person is saying, because my answer to this song that first changed my life might be a song that just had a newer awesome sound to it, that pleased, my ears. Is there a subtle answer or a way to get to that deeper meeting?
Fernando Garibay: I get this question quite a bit and I feel I have a grasp on this. I mean, let me try to answer this with empathy because it’s important. For me, I’ll give you a case study for me, I was named after an album and song called Fernando. My Dad didn’t have a name for me. There was this nurse who, when I was born said she loved the song named Fernando by Abba. So, my Dad went out and bought every, every record from Abba. And so, you know, I’ve been hearing it since I was, I was raised.
And so if anybody knows, like pop music and the history of pop music, Abba laid out the framework of what pop music really should sound like. Every pop song you hear, the majority part of European pop music and American pop music has had this framework of these choruses, right verse, chorus, verse, pre-chorus, chorus model. So that music I still to this day had an imprint on me. It’s kind of like music tends to leave an imprint on an individual.
Art tends to leave an imprint. It gives people narratives. It gives people a sense of direction. A sense of meaning that’s what’s so powerful about art. It can define your path and your trajectory and the story you’re going to tell yourself about your future, who you are in this earth and planet. That’s so powerful. Music, art, can be, and this is why it is essential that we harness that creativity, that prowess and share it with the world. To answer your question. I think it’s about the music for me that defines who you are, who you can be. That’s the most powerful thing that I’ve learned about creating music and what it does, for people and with people. Some people see it as a form of therapy. I believe, you know, according to neuroscience evidence, I see it as a language.
And the more you learn how to speak in your artistic language, whether it be music or painting or photography or acting, the more you’re able to express yourself, using your language. Right that’s all it is right. Behavioral therapy is communicating which is similar. You can see it as therapy, but if you adopted a perspective that it’s like a language, and you’re becoming a better speaker, you can be more effective at communicating with your therapist, whether it be your audience, or your A & R or your manager, whoever it may be, or your marketing campaign, et cetera.
It’s all the same thing in my head. And I believe that for me, it gave me structure to create these frameworks again, to teach people that, Hey, this is so valuable, what you do and who you are is so valuable to the world. Let us help you identify that for you to live out your version of success. And that’s important, Brian, right? Defining your success because there’s different versions of success. We don’t have to model our success after what’s out there right now. We can create our version of success on a novel version of ourselves in the future.
Brian Ardinger: Well, Fernando is always fascinating to have you on the show and to talk about some of the things that you’re seeing out there in the world. If people want to find out more about yourself or the Garibay Center, what’s the best way to do that?
Fernando Garibay: TheGaribaycenter.com. Fernando Garibay at Instagram, @FernandoGariby on Twitter, be creative in how you reach out to me. And that’s how we identify talent that we can fast track. Right. And the key again, my mission is to create a thought leadership paradigm in the music industry, in the arts community, to align and share their intellectual thought leadership prowess. And that’s the big goal is the new value prop that since we live in a creative world, why not bring the creative class along for leadership and thought leadership. That is the most powerful thing I think I can contribute to this world at this moment.
Brian Ardinger: As the world changes, we definitely need some additional thought leaders and new ways of thinking about everything. So, I appreciate you coming on. If people want to find out more about insideoutside.io, please go to our website. We’re going to continue to do these IO Live events. Next Thursday, we have Henrik Werdelin, who is the founder of BarkBox and also Prehype. So, join us for that and sign up for our newsletter and be part of the insideoutside.io community. And thanks for coming out and joining us.
Fernando Garibay: Thank you, Brian. Thank you so much. Thank you for your wonderful, wonderful interview.
Brian Ardinger: That’s it for another episode of Inside Outside Innovation. If you want to learn more about our team, our content, our services, check out InsideOutside.io or follow us on Twitter @theIOpodcast or @Ardinger. Until next time, go out and innovate.
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